Thank you to PrayTell for the link to the World Youth Day booklet. From what I’ve seen so far, if you are expecting the best of Catholic liturgy, you will be disappointed and maybe alarmed. If you are expecting the worst, you will be pleased at how much of the traditional forms have been retained.
In general, however, my biggest regret is how these events and their venues almost make authentic liturgy impossible, and yet, given their high status and profile, serve as a model for parishes. There was lasting damage from WYD in John Paul II’s time, and this event too might encourage exactly the opposite push from where we need to be going (away from pop entertainment styles and toward authentic and integral presentations of the received forms).
The comment of the millennium on Facebook was, "Bono's going to perform????"
a definite step back. left-wing loon fake catholics will be thrilled!
Jeffrey,
I'm in Rio de Janeiro attending my 8th WYD and concur with your perspective about the problematic aspects of the prevailing liturgical style characteristic of this international event. That said, there is reason for hope. I just attended a Solemn Pontifical Mass in the Extraordinary Form, celebrated by Bishop Fernando Areas Rifan at Igreja Nossa Senhora Do Carmo da Antigua Sé (the "Old Cathedral" of Rio). The church was packed with young people (standing room only an hour before the liturgy). It was a magnificent celebration and the hundreds of young people in devout, contemplative worship provided a stark contrast
to the "party" atmosphere of much of the rest of WYD.
I think the WYDs actually represent a great opportunity for introducing young people to authentic liturgy, if only the organizers gave the youth more credit. Our diocese (Ft. Worth), thanks the vision and leadership of our director of vocations, recently included a chant workshop as part of a diocesan youth rally. It was well attended and the 80+ teens who participated formed a Schola and led their peers in chanting Vespers. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this could be reproduced on the scale possible with WYD?
Yes, not great, but let's remember WYD has resulted in many conversions and many vocations as well – some of its detractors seem to conveniently miss this point.
It was quite saddening to watch some of the Masses that have been celebrated thus far. I feel bad for Msgr. Marini — he is certainly a bit uncomfortable!
Evidence? Particularly what exactly they were converted to. That is to say, are they going to skeedaddle to the nearest Protestant megachurch once the feel-good booze wears off?
There have been countless reports from many diocesian groups to WYD, and from different countries, in how the event either re-invigorated people's faith, assisted in the conversion process for some, or generated religious vocations. Some of this could just be spin I grant you, but not all of it – there are too many personal stories that give solid support to the claims made. This alone makes the event worthwhile despite the poor quality of many of the liturgies. Two people in my own very small parish community alone are pursuing religious vocations because of it.
I may as well ask you, what evidence do you have it diminished the attendees' faith?
I may as well ask you, what evidence do you have it diminished the attendees' faith?
Technically, the burden of proof is on you since it is your contention. But I'll retract because I'm being unfair in that the answer seems heavily based on anecdotes, and I can't reasonably demand you make a case that way. I suppose what set me off is that nobody is conveniently forgetting anything; that's simply unfair of you to say. The crux of the problem for me is that it is not simply bad liturgy which it is, but that it is quasi-Protestant anti-liturgy. And in my experience bad liturgy is the fumo to bad theology's flamma.
And yet, in spite of it all, Jesus still humbles himself to show up. Maybe we can learn something from the Master.
I don't think anyone here disputes that Our Lord is present at WYD. I happen to think Our Lord is present at home, work, single's bars, during bank robberies, and in concentration camps. The issue at hand however is that proper liturgy emphasizes and points to His presence and bad liturgy obscures it.
I think I would make your last sentence a little less absolute by saying “proper liturgy CAN emphasize and point to His presence and bad liturgy CAN obscure it.” It’s also important to note that “proper liturgy” and “bad liturgy” are, in large part, matters of personal taste. I'm not denying that our Masses – both in the EF and OF – always have room for improvement. But let's also not lose sight of the fact that a bad Mass (whatever that might mean) is typically better than no Mass at all.
I would disagree. Proper Liturgy and Bad Liturgy is not about personal taste, Propery Liturgy is achieved when the Liturgy follows what the CHURCH prescribes. Bad liturgy is what occurs when the Liturgy is not done according to what the Church prescribes. I think there have been a number of excellent articles on this website which addresses this very point, convincingly.
Exactly. This is just the dictatorship of relativism–a beast that has swallowed the whole world and what is left of civilization lives in its belly.
I'm with you. But I'm trying to draw a distinction between that which is allowed versus that which we don't like. There's a lot of things about the NO Mass that we may not like, but are stil well within the Church's norms. We may not like the way a Mass is being celebrated at WYD, but it may still be proper.
You've hit the nail on the head David. Many of these objections from WYD detractors are purely to do with personal taste – in choosing from the diverse possibilities the Church legitimately allows.
Are there any liturgical rubrics deliberately violated at the Papal WYD liturgies?
Altar cross with no corpus. Violates GIRM 308. It's clear that Guido Marini had no influence in the planning of these events.
If this is a Papal Mass, the Pope can temporarily change rubrics at his discretion – he is the supreme legislator after all.
Are you sure there wasn't a processional cross at this Mass? This fulfills the GIRM requirement. If not, which particular Mass are you referring to?
And we're the ones accused of legalism.